Episode 98: On Boundaries & Burnout with Audrey Holst
If you struggle with setting boundaries, and end up burnt out, this episode is for you. I’m interviewing Audrey Holt, who is the founder of the Fortitude & Flow® Process which fuses movement and mindfulness to create sustainable action. We talk about how burnout builds, why anxiety is contagious, and why it’s so hard to set boundaries.
In this episode:
Standing Still Collective with Audrey Holst
How burnout builds
Snacking & the vagus nerve
How we regulate our nervous systems through other people
Why anxiety is contagious
A Big Boundaries Discussion
Why it’s so hard to set boundaries
On lowering expectations
Why you need to drop the ball
What’s your body asking of you right now?
Somatic practices
Learn More About Mindset
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Erin Holt [00:00:05]:
Welcome to the Funk'tional Nutrition Podcast. I'm your host, Erin Holt, and I'm a board certified integrative and functional nutritionist. I live on the seacoast of New Hampshire and work with clients in my virtual practice all over the world through private consultations and online nutrition and functional medicine programs. Functional medicine nutrition is all about diving deep with people to get to the root cause of their health issues. And that's exactly what I tackle in this podcast. All things health, food, and nutrition, unpacking current research, and almost a decade of clinical experience. I love to bring experts and thought leaders to the table so we can all learn together. Please keep in mind this podcast is created for educational purposes only and should never be used as a replacement for medical diagnosis or treatment.
Erin Holt [00:00:55]:
Thanks for joining me. Now, let's dive in. All right, guys, we're back. And today I have an interview that you're gonna love. We're gonna be talking all about burnout with Audrey Holst. We had this planned pre Covid, but I think it's still very relevant right now. I'm just thinking about my friends. A lot of them are small business owners, and they basically had to change their entire business model overnight.
Erin Holt [00:01:25]:
I'm thinking about the parents who are working full time and also home with kids, homeschooling, you know, child rearing, all of that. Nevermind the emotional stuff that we're all processing through. It's a lot. It's a lot to take on and to handle right now. So we're going to talk about that. A little intro on Audrey. She helps really smart people not fall apart. By helping them heal and transform their burnout.
Erin Holt [00:01:54]:
She combines over a decade of experience teaching yoga and mindfulness with extensive training and work as a certified professional coach. She works one on one with compassionate leaders. She's the author of an upcoming book that teaches people that there is nothing wrong with them. And she leads a monthly virtual gathering called the Standing Still Collective, which is currently being offered as a pay what you can, which is so incredible. So, Audrey, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I want to know all about this anti burnout culture. Why is this your jump off? Like, how did you even get into this?
Audrey Holst [00:02:35]:
It's something that, it's one of those things that when you start to look at yourself in the grand scheme of your life, and it's like, oh, everywhere you go, there you are. And I've gone through burnout. Let me just sort of define, define burnout really quickly in the context of how I'm going to talk about it. So burnout has this component of emotional exhaustion, which I think is most of what people are familiar with burnout. There is also this depersonalization aspect where the people that you care about and, you know you care about, you feel sort of separate from, you have a difficulty connecting with them. And then there is also an element of feeling like what you do doesn't really matter or isn't really important. And most of the academic studies have been done in workplace environments. But for the sake of the way that I talk about burnout and from the way that a lot of people talk about burnout, this is applicable to anybody in any aspect of their life.
Audrey Holst [00:03:39]:
So it's not necessarily just a professional thing, but it's the easiest jumping off point. So this really, I find, applies with families, like family dynamics. So, you know, you can be like a stay at home parent and be experiencing burnout, and you're like, well, I'm not a job. And, well, you kind of are at a job. So I have gone through different iterations of working for a company, so being employed by a company, and I was an independent contractor for a while. For a while, I was independent contracting work, doing yoga, teaching yoga, and then I was employed by the yoga studio. I also became a manager at the yoga studio. I eventually ended up becoming a co owner of a yoga studio.
Audrey Holst [00:04:26]:
And now I am, obviously, I'm self employed. I have my own coaching and consulting practice. So I've been through all of the different job iterations that you could have, like hourly wage, salaried with benefits, without benefits, sort of hustling. I found, and this is true of the clients that I've worked with, too, because I've worked with entrepreneurs, I've worked with people who are employees of a bigger organization, there is sort of this embodied, driving force inside of a lot of us. And I find it very common in women also, where it's kind of like, no matter what happens, you do it, you don't question it, you suck it up, you make sure you look good, you take it on. And all of those things inevitably lead to a total system shutdown. Like, just a total system shutdown. And it starts really low level, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
Audrey Holst [00:05:30]:
And I've talked with people who have had burnout and up to the point, like, their hair is falling out, and then it takes them, like, you know, a chunk of their life to just try to recover from it. So that's the extreme example. But the people that I usually work with and the people that are usually talking about burnout. It's more like this low level things are not quite right, but I can't quite put my finger on it. And I'm sure it'll just get better if I take a break or, like, take a vacation. But, like, I don't do those things, so it never really gets better. It's. It's sort of that.
Audrey Holst [00:06:05]:
That level of burnout that I see most often.
Erin Holt [00:06:09]:
Yeah. You know, what's, um. It's when you were saying, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and you gave some extreme examples, I feel like that's usually when people see me, because it's something that they can no longer ignore because it's coming out in physical ways.
Audrey Holst [00:06:24]:
Right.
Erin Holt [00:06:24]:
Whether it's autoimmunity or adrenal burnout or hormonal imbalance or thyroid dysfunction. That's how we see it play out. So, yeah, I get that. And I obviously can relate in a lot of different ways, as I'm sure many other people listening can. And I feel like right now, you know, you were kind of talking about this as women, we just do, do, do. It's kind of like we just put our head down, we put the blinders on, and we just go. And right now, I'm finding that some of those blinders are being lifted. Where we're at home, things are slowing down.
Erin Holt [00:06:59]:
Even though there is still a lot on our plates. It's at a different pace, and it looks a little bit differently. And so I know, personally, I am starting to evaluate, reevaluate, audit my relationship to productivity. Like, who am I if I'm not in this full tilt production mode all the time? How much of my self worth is actually tied up in what I can produce? And that has been really unsettling for me. If you look to thought leaders in the spirituality world, they're really talking about how this is an invitation to kind of explore our shadow sides in a lot of ways. And this is what's coming up for me majorly. And it's creating a lot of anxiety because we're forced to sit still.
Erin Holt [00:07:52]:
Right. You know, kind of like that busyness that we. That, like, frenetic level that we all operate that is kind of, like, sizzled down. And now we're just left in the stillness with, like, how do we actually feel inside? That's scary. Like, that's a lot to unpack.
Audrey Holst [00:08:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. And the frame at which I, the lens that I look through things at, and maybe it's helpful to share this, too, because it might be helpful for some of your listeners just to have a slightly different perspective, is I look at things from basically the survival tactics of our bodies and our nervous systems. So if we look at burnout from that perspective, and I don't know if you or your listeners are familiar with the concept of the window of tolerance, but there is this particular. You can even visually picture a window, how a window has a top and a bottom. Those are sort of the lines I'm going to be talking about.
Audrey Holst [00:08:46]:
So you can think about our bodies and our ability to function in our lives as basically being in this window of tolerance. And this window of tolerance is basically when our nervous systems are in a fairly restful state. You know, we're sort of working basically mostly with parasympathetic rest and digest. We can think clearly. We don't feel under attack or under any sort of threat. And our initial reactions when something goes wrong is to actually sort of reach out. And that's something that we've seen where people have sort of, like, reached out to other people and they've offered their services.
Audrey Holst [00:09:31]:
You know, a lot of people have been offering services for free, which may not be something that they'd often do, but there's this sort of reaction to be like, oh, I got to connect with other people. That's sort of our initial, our more modern survival mechanism is to reach out, which isn't really available to us right now either. So the next sort of thing that people. That often happens with people is there's some sort of, you know, our bodies basically go through this, like, fight, flight, freeze. There's also this fourth one called Fawn, which I can talk about in a second. But what's the next.
Audrey Holst [00:10:03]:
What's the most, like, next primitive survival thing that I can go to? Right. Fight or flight. Everything gets elevated. We go from that sort of, okay, I'm getting excited about something. I'm still in my window of tolerance. I'm feeling energized. I'm feeling excited. Now I'm feeling anxious.
Audrey Holst [00:10:18]:
Now I'm feeling angry. Right? That's when, whoop. We just gone through that window of tolerance, and now we're more into a survival mode situation. That's where there's a lot of panic and people going out and buying tons of stuff they don't need and posting every scary thing they can think of on social media and just blowing up everybody's nervous systems. You can see the collective thing that's happening where it's not just one person that's having a bad day, it's like everybody's having a bad day at the same time and sharing it with each other, which is not regulating for anybody. There's other people who will go in a different direction. They'll actually go through the floor of their window of tolerance. And those are the people.
Audrey Holst [00:10:56]:
Instead of, like, that sort of fight or flight response, they whoop. They kind of go into more of a freeze state where it's like, I shut everything down, I crawl under a blanket, and I don't want to talk to anybody, and I don't want to socialize, and I can't handle life. And so that's another way to sort of go into that survival mode. And so the idea in a time like this is right, like, so everybody's kind of, we've kind of gone through different versions of this, and maybe you can sort of relate, even in your own experience of, like, maybe things were totally feeling crazy for a while, but then, like you said, they're, like, sort of settling in a weird way and sort of calming down and quieting down. And now we're kind of like, well, shoot, where are we? Because things are not normal, right? Like, this is not normal for us to be living the way we're living, but we're still just trying to, like, okay, we're in a survival situation still. Everybody's nervous systems are still not quite okay. Like, now what? Like, how do we sort of, sort of deal with this new place we've found ourselves in? So that's kind of.
Audrey Holst [00:11:57]:
I'm not sure if I really explain that in a way that's going to be helpful for people to wrap their brains around, but that's just something to sort of understand the ping pong that maybe people have been experiencing where they're super feeling productive and they can get everything done, and then they're like, ooh, I can't even move the next day. And just understandably, our nervous systems don't really know how to react or respond or what to do, because life just keeps changing. And unpredictability is actually one of those things that's really tough on the nervous system. And immobility, which for a lot of people who are not able to leave their house and do a lot of the things that usually help them to cope, is also very difficult on the nervous system. So dealing with both of those things have kind of amplified the effects for a lot of people.
Erin Holt [00:12:41]:
For sure. I talked, you know, this is, my audience is no stranger to nervous system stuff we talked about the stress response probably in every episode I did. A couple of weeks ago, I released an episode that I entitled Fear Response and Downregulating the Nervous System. In response to that, a listener sent me Brene Brown's podcast, where she talked about over functioning and under functioning. And it's very much so, kind of in lockstep with what you're talking about and what I talked about on the other podcast, which is, like, we kind of have our default responses, you know, like, where we're gonna. I'm definitely an over functioner. I'm like, I'm gonna lead.
Erin Holt [00:13:25]:
I'm gonna take charge. I'm gonna solve the problem. I'm gonna help. I'm gonna be the helper. And that's where I derive a lot of my sense of purpose and self worth from. And then some people completely under function, and they just, like, completely shut down like you were talking about. And I think what I've been encouraging people to do is observe your behaviors, observe your patterns, observe your default without judgment. There's nothing wrong with you if you favor one or the other, but just have some awareness.
Erin Holt [00:13:51]:
And same thing for coping strategies, too, because I'm in the food space, I'm hearing a lot about emotional eating and snacking and all this kind of stuff. The COVID 15 jokes I talked about that last week are coming up. Like, whoa, you know, if the way that you cope with stress and trauma is to emotionally eat, like, that's okay. Like, that's where you're at right now. That's where you're working. And I think we can all stand to give ourselves a little bit more grace around however it is we're responding to this.
Erin Holt [00:14:26]:
There's no, I said last week, there's no rule book. There's no playbook. Right. There's no. There's no script for this. We're all in it blind together. So observe your behaviors. If you feel that they're not serving you, then you could do some things to change them.
Erin Holt [00:14:38]:
But the first step is awareness and figuring out how you respond, how you react, and being okay with that.
Audrey Holst [00:14:46]:
Yeah, and I totally agree with that. And I think that's something that's so necessary right now, especially one of the things I just want to touch on really quickly about the overeating. I don't want to say overeating. The sort of, like, feeling that urge towards snacking on a regular basis. One of the sort of theories around the vagus nerve. And I listened to the podcast that you just did with the breathing, which was so amazing, and talking about the vagus nerve and its functions and how it actually goes into your belly. And for a lot of people, there's actually a stimulation of the vagus nerve when they've got a full belly.
Audrey Holst [00:15:24]:
Like, there's actually physiological comfort that comes with that sensation inside the body. So I just want to, like, say that in service of, like, what you're doing makes total sense because you want some friggin comfort in times of craziness. Like, give yourself break, you know, like, cut yourself some slack. There's no right way. There's no, what it looks like doesn't necessarily look like what you think it should look like. And even things like, okay, I feel really anxious. I should be doing something to calm down, but all I want to do is, like, freak out. You know, there's sometimes a feeling of, like, okay, well, if my system is really, you know, really activated, I need to do something to calm it down.
Audrey Holst [00:16:07]:
Well, sometimes also doing something to just get, like, close that stress loop, like, doing something really active. There's a lot of people right now who are not runners, who are going for runs because it feels good and it's starting to close that flight stress loop. You know, like, for myself, I know I often pick sort of more calming practices, but I've been doing a lot of, like, strength training, jumping jacks, push ups, core work, because it helps me feel the strength of my body, and it just helps me to feel more grounded. So I would just encourage people that, like, if there is an instinctual, like, if you're really paying attention to your body and you're not judging the thing that's happening, and there's an instinctual, almost, you know, primitive thing that feels like it needs to, like, you just feel like you need to just run around the freaking house. Like, sometimes following that need is actually closing the stress loop that you may not even know is open. You know, like, so that's just something for people to chew on, because there is a lot of, you know, advice on, like, well, if you're feeling this way, well, then you should try this. Or if you're feeling this way, you should try this.
Audrey Holst [00:17:12]:
And sometimes that is the right advice. And sometimes it's like, well, what is the thing that is, like, what is the thing your body is wanting to express? Is it like, an energetic expression that needs to happen, or is it like a comfort? Because sometimes. And that's something that's not talked about much right now either. Is like, how are you finding comfort right now? Because there's not a lot in the collective that's available, and it's very important if you want to not be in a survival situation the entire time. What's comforting, what's calming, what's proving to your system that things are actually safe and okay?
Erin Holt [00:17:49]:
That is so - Okay. You kind of said two different things there. The first one really resonated with me. I was chewing on it. I was definitely chewing on it. I have been doing a ton more, just more intense exercise than I normally do. I've been craving running. I haven't ran in years just because I get injured all the time.
Erin Holt [00:18:11]:
But I'm like, I need to start running. And are you familiar with trauma release exercises?
Audrey Holst [00:18:16]:
Obsessed. I do it every night.
Erin Holt [00:18:18]:
My legs will not stop. And so it looks like they're running in place, and I'm like, all right, clearly this needs to come out of my body. But it's so funny, because it's like I have this instinctual urge to just go hard, and that's not really normally my mo, so that is that a lot of light bulbs went off for me, and I'm sure for listeners as well. That is very cool. It makes a lot of sense. And then the. The comfort piece is.
Erin Holt [00:18:48]:
Is a big one. What are you doing for comfort? Right? There's so much nervous system activation. You know, what you were talking about is earlier about people wanting to share. It's like, if people have anxiety, it's almost like they want to infect other people with it. I don't even think it's a conscious thing, but it feels good to be like, I'm anxious. Somebody else needs to be anxious with me. On that podcast, Brene Brown was saying how contagious anxiety is. And I'm like, yes, it really is one thing that I've been doing, and I'd love for you to talk and kind of, like, help me process this and other people as well, about how we can establish energetic boundaries.
Erin Holt [00:19:29]:
One thing that I have been doing and saying is that I'm not available to help people emotionally process the trauma of this time. Like, I cannot do it. I cannot be available for that. And it sounds a little bit harsh, but it's also the way that I have to protect my own space. Like, I know what's going on in the world. Like, I understand. I cannot relive it every second of my day. Every human interaction that I have, whether it's a friend, a family member, or a client, it cannot be about how hard this is.
Erin Holt [00:20:04]:
And how traumatic this is. It is very hard. It is very traumatic. But I cannot continue to, like, like, soak in this, in this bathtub of trauma. Trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma. Like, the news has been turned off. We get ten minutes a day. That's it.
Erin Holt [00:20:21]:
You know, it's like these are ways that I'm safeguarding my own energy so I don't feel the collective anxiety. Because I was feeling it so much, it was like really wiping me out. And now I'm like, all right, so here's how I have to safeguard myself against it. What are other ways we can. I guess my question is, one, how do you know if what you're feeling is really yours, or if it's more of a collective felt experience? And then two, how do you safeguard yourself against that?
Audrey Holst [00:22:31]:
Yeah, so, so many amazing things just in that, what you've talked about. I think one of the things, just to point out, is the fact that we collectively, one of the ways that we regulate nervous systems on a regular basis is with other people's nervous systems. So it's like, if you go into a room and you're just having a bad day. So this is the thing, just to point out, right, like, is like, if you go into a room, you're having a really bad day. Everybody in that room looks at you, they're smiling at you. You know, they're. They're.
Audrey Holst [00:23:06]:
Even if they don't say anything, but you walk into the room and you can just feel that, like everybody there, their nervous systems are calm. Things are pretty cool. It helps you to sort of down regulate, right? It just helps you to take a few breaths, and all of a sudden you feel a little bit better. Well, we're sort of in the opposite situation where we walk into a room and everybody is screaming that the room is on fire and that's what we are immersed in. So I think it's a really smart. I think that boundaries can get really tricky for people. People don't like the word or they feel like, well, it's mean or it's harsh. You use the word harsh or some version of that.
Audrey Holst [00:23:45]:
And really it's a communication, right? It's just a communication of this is what I need. And I think that that's the first starting point for somebody, which it sounds like you've identified, is, what do you need? Because there's kind of two things we're working with here. We're talking about incoming threats, the barrage of the incoming. And so then it's like, okay, that's where the boundary comes up, is to start to stop the flow of incoming stressors, the things that are coming into your system, the things that are coming at you. Okay, so one of the ways, like, you've just explicitly described is limiting your exposure to these things. That puts your body and your psyche and your brain into a higher state of things are not safe, right. So it's limiting your exposure to those things.
Audrey Holst [00:24:40]:
And when people do want to come in, because, again, people's initial reactions to feel better is to engage socially. So they're coming at you, right, with their stuff. I'm not saying it's the right thing for them to be doing, but I'm saying it's understandable that people are kind of going to where they consider to be a safe space. So it is our responsibility to identify what it is that we need and to express that there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying, hey, listen, I totally hear that this is a really tough time, and I am there, and I get it. And, like, listen, I'm at my max right now, and I cannot. I just can't hear anymore about this. I cannot take on any more information because I'm already maxed out. And I've got a lot of stuff that I need to, you know, this on my plate, whatever, whatever the thing is.
Audrey Holst [00:25:30]:
But it's a totally appropriate thing. And, yeah, especially if you're somebody that's not had to set boundaries up to this point. This is going to be an extremely hard thing to do. But you can also think about it as a survival practice, because, honestly, if you don't set those boundaries, that's more inundation of your system. And if you don't have practices, then to help get some of that stress out of your system and to process that stress, then, like, I've had days where. Because I do a lot of one on one work. Like, I had a day a week or two ago where I had, like, maybe five or six phone calls in the day, and my body was wrecked at the end of the day.
Audrey Holst [00:26:06]:
It was. It's difficult. It's difficult, especially for people who are doing this work and have sensitive systems, which I definitely have, and I imagine that you might have, too. So, you know, naming the boundaries. And a good question. Randy Buckley, who does Boundaries for Kind People, she has this really wonderful expression where people talk about, well, what if somebody's trampling over my boundaries? And the question to ask is, what do you. What would you say that they think your boundary is right? People have to know. It has to be clearly expressed.
Audrey Holst [00:26:43]:
It can't just be a snide comment. It just can't be a passive aggressive. Well, you should have figured it out by now. It has to be clearly expressed. So you really need to be honest with yourself. What do you need? And then you have to express that to somebody, which is, again, if you've never done that before, this is going to be a really difficult thing to do, but it's going to be necessary for your functioning.
Erin Holt [00:27:06]:
Yes. I feel that there is an inverse relationship between boundaries and burnout for me. So the lower my boundaries are, the higher the burnout. Right. But I also get how hard it is.
Erin Holt [00:27:21]:
I mean, I'm kind of a boundaries bitch. Like, I broadcast my boundaries all the time, and yet every single time I do it, I'm like, like, this is. People are gonna hate me for this. This is the one. This is the one that's gonna make everybody hate me, but I do it anyway because I'm like, if I don't, if I don't hold this container for myself, nobody else will. So I have to do it. And every time I do set a public boundary on social media, I always have, like, my, like, my groupies, like.
Erin Holt [00:27:51]:
Like, my ride or dies. They're like, Erin, you don't feel like you have to. You have to explain yourself to anybody. And I appreciate that so much. But I'm also like, look, I'm doing this a so people can understand what's appropriate and what's not in my viewpoint. Like, I want people to know. I want my boundaries to be crystal clear. And also, the more comfortable I am setting boundaries, the more people watching me are gonna feel comfortable doing it in their own life.
Erin Holt [00:28:21]:
I get permission. I feel like I get permission. When I witness somebody else set a boundary, I'm like, hot damn, they can do it, then so can I. And so I want to be able to pass, like, kind of pay it forward and pass it on to other people, but it's not easy. It really, really isn't easy, because at the end of the day, we all want to be liked. We all want to be loved, and we're scared of ruffling feathers 100%.
Audrey Holst [00:28:44]:
And that's the, you know, the nervous system wants to know, am I going to die? And will they like me? Right? Those are the two questions that. That's like, the two questions the nervous system wants to. Our social nervous system, our, you know, our ancient nervous systems, am I going to die? Do they like me? Like, that's what our body wants to know. So it makes sense, right? It makes sense that this is a difficult thing. And I love what you said about that whole, like, permission giving thing, because I know for myself, when somebody sets a boundary with me or expresses something, it makes me feel like, oh, gosh, you can do that. You know, like, every time somebody does it, it validates that for me. So I think that's a really helpful thing. And something that occurred to me because we did talk, you did mention just the concept of an energetic boundary, and I think this could be helpful for people, too.
Audrey Holst [00:29:34]:
When you are in a situation where maybe you're not able to set up, maybe it's like you have to have a conversation. Maybe you're not able to end it, or maybe you're doing work with clients or something like that. I just wanted to mention a practice of being very aware and sort of plugged in to your own physical body during an interaction. So for a lot of us who are empathetic and who are sensitive and are good at the work we do, because we are able to sort of go out there and sort of be with other people. A hard practice, but a necessary practice, is, like, to stay within the boundaries of your own body. So, like, when I'm talking with clients, and obviously I do, I'm not perfect at practicing this because I'm a human being, but I try to basically, okay, where is my body weight? Can I feel the edges of my body? Can I notice how I'm breathing? Can I constantly check in with my own self in relation while I'm also in relationship with this other person to make sure that I'm not just, like, getting sucked out of my own body and sort of, like, into their stuff, you know, like. So that might be another in terms of, like, an energetic practice.
Audrey Holst [00:30:52]:
If you're in a situation that you, like, maybe you're out in public or something, you know, how can you sort of stay connected to yourself and constantly give yourself that feeling of sort of safety and things are okay if your nervous system is, like, whoop, just going out there, seeping out into the world, you know?
Erin Holt [00:31:14]:
Yes, I will give it a real world example of exactly what you're talking about. I always learn. Well, I learn best by, like, real world examples and, like, storytelling. And I was closing out my day. This is a few months ago. I was closing out my day, my work day. I was getting ready to go kick it with Hattie. I was about to shut down my computer, and I'm like, one more email.
Erin Holt [00:31:36]:
I'm just gonna grab one more email.
Audrey Holst [00:31:38]:
Oh, we've all been there.
Erin Holt [00:31:40]:
Never do it again. When it's time to close the computer, close that goddamn computer. And so it was a long email, and by the first paragraph, I was like, great. I was, like, whistling to the birds and had a skip in my step. I was feeling good. By the first end of the first paragraph, I started to feel, like, heart beating faster.
Erin Holt [00:32:04]:
I started to feel a little sweaty. It was like, the start of a panic attack. And the email that I was reading was from a client who was experiencing significant anxiety about health issues. And I realized in that moment, it was the first time it really clicked in for me that, oh, my God, I am taking on the emotions that she was feeling when she sat down to type out this email. I'm feeling them in my body right now. This is not mine. This is 100% hers. And it was such a crazy moment of realization for me.
Erin Holt [00:32:39]:
So now that I'm aware of it, I can try my best to put practices into place to keep that from happening. And I really like that. The little visualization that you're talking about, like, kind of where do my boundaries or, excuse me, the borders of my container end and somebody else's begin.
Audrey Holst [00:32:55]:
Yeah.
Erin Holt [00:32:57]:
Okay. One thing that we had chatted about before was, you phrase it as the unique challenges women face when it comes to burnout. And I think this really also ties into this concept of resources versus demands, like what's on our plate versus what do we actually have the ability and the bandwidth to deal with. And I think especially right now, I mean, this is always, you know, but right now I feel like parents. And, you know, I know in many households, the mom is sort of the default parent. I have a wonderfully supportive partner. I still feel that. The same effects, especially, my husband works for a company. I work for myself.
Erin Holt [00:33:41]:
So it doesn't always feel like it's comparing apples to apples, which is frustrating, was a story for a different day. But almost overnight, we went from having one job to having like, 70. Right. So right now I'm a full time business owner. I'm a full time stay at home mom. I'm a babysitter, and I'm a kindergarten teacher. Right. So there's a lot.
Erin Holt [00:34:02]:
So the demands have almost increased on us, and yet our resources certainly have not. So what's up with this?
Audrey Holst [00:34:11]:
Yeah, this is such a. Yeah. And I feel like a whole, a whole. It could be a whole other episode on, on this sort of gendered things that, that happen within, within relationships and that sort of stuff. And I, a client, I think, put this one of the best ways. She said something to the effect of she's like, I feel like I'm expected to basically carry the weight of the world on my shoulders while wearing high heels, being dressed really well and have a smile on my face the entire time.
Erin Holt [00:34:48]:
And a six pack.
Audrey Holst [00:34:50]:
And a six pack. Right, exactly. And that, I think that description just basically sums up why people feel nuts right now. And it's like we laugh because we get it, which is the sad thing. Right. So, you know, one of the things that I just want to draw out explicitly is expectations. You know, like, what is the expectation here? And I had another client who was sort of joking. She's like, you know, my, my ideal world expectation that I've set in my head is that we're all going to sit down at the dinner table and we're going to light some candles and we're all going to eat together and we're going to eat really healthy meals and everybody's going to talk and share their days.
Audrey Holst [00:35:39]:
In her mind's eye, that's the insane standard she set for herself. But she also knows mentally that no effing way, that's not. No, no. We can barely get out of bed right now, let alone cook a ten star meal and have everybody at the table with the candle set. So know that there is an internalized expectation that we have taken on as our own. That's not our fault. And I think that this is something that was told to me and I found it really valuable that like, your expectations are not your fault. The crazy expectations you have, the insane standards you've set, they're not your fault because they've been ingrained in the culture.
Audrey Holst [00:36:33]:
It's the water we swim in. It's become the sort of default for there's this amazing book. It's called Why We Can't Sleep. And it's all about women especially who are in their late thirties to like late forties. This generation were basically like all of these new expectations have. It's like, right, you can hold a job and you can be that CEO and you can also be like the perfect mother and like also be spending that same amount of time you were spending in the home with the same expectations. But also you're not going to get any other resources to like do the things you need to do. And like, society is not going to shift as a whole to allow you to do those things in a better way.
Audrey Holst [00:37:19]:
Like, know that you don't have the resources that you need. Therefore the expectations have to be lowered down to what might feel like an insanely low level for you, but are actually probably the more reasonable requests. Like the more reasonable things. So it's kind of like what's the small and doable here? Like what is the bare minimum that has to happen? And like, know that bare minimum is probably still going to be like way higher than, than what you think is actually going to happen. You know, like, so starting to just like lower some of those standards. What are the expectations? Like, what do you really think is reasonable? Like, and can we take that down a few notches? Because whatever expectation you've set for yourself in terms of, you know, how clean the house is supposed to be or like, what the meals are supposed to look like or what schooling, like, okay, right? Like, you're supposed to all of a sudden be a school teacher on top of everything else? Like, no, no. Like, let's be honest, that's not going to happen. And that's okay, because guess what? Your kids lives have just been completely flipped in the air, too, right? Everybody's lives are a little bit crazy.
Audrey Holst [00:38:27]:
So, yeah, biggest advice is take the expectation down, like, 500 notches from where you think it's supposed to be.
Erin Holt [00:38:37]:
Yeah, I love that. And I think it's. I think we, we don't. We're not very good at that. It's like, what more can I add? You know? Like, what more can I add to my plate? I, you know, I realized I had, like, a total step back moment where I realized, okay, like, a bunch of extra stuff just got added to my plate. Hey, that means that I have to take some things off, right? That's the next step there. Which just shows that, you know, it's like when you can step back and observe your own growth and you're like, oh, my God, all of this hard work has really paid off. That was one of those moments that I'm like, okay, I'm doing okay here.
Erin Holt [00:39:11]:
I talk about this stuff all the time. It's nice to know that I'm actually putting it into practice. So I had, as I was telling you at the start of this, I had been working on this really massive online program. The last one I built out was on hormones. And ironically, I ended up with, like, severe adrenal dysfunction because I was working so hard to pump it out. These programs are just a lot. They're a tremendous amount of work, right, any way you swing it. So I realized, I'm like, I can't actually do that right now.
Erin Holt [00:39:42]:
Like, why would I do that to myself? Why would I put those expectations on myself? Nobody else is. It's only me. It's internally derived. So I have to take that. I have to lower my expectations so dramatically in order to survive this thing and come out on the other end. And I think it's also important to, like, have a sit down conversation with, you know, with your family unit and be like, what's the most important thing here? What matters most to us? You know? For us, it was like, we want our kid. She's, you know, I want to preface this by saying she's almost six. She's in kindergarten.
Erin Holt [00:40:15]:
I've talked to a lot of her peers, parents who are freaking out about them falling behind. And I'm like, yo, when we were five, we were just trying not to poop our pants and eat glue. I think they're gonna be okay with, like, totally two months of, like, not. You know what I'm saying? Maybe we got to take this a little less seriously. I mean, all the educators out there are probably freaking out at me saying that, but, like, she's not going to go dumb overnight. So the fact that we have this, like, huge opportunity to spend more time as a family, to go into the woods, to explore, to teach her things, and spend this time together that we otherwise might not, like, that's going to be huge. And that's the most important thing to us as a family, you know? And, like, so what are those, like, little nuggets for you individually? Like, what? You know, what's important to you? For me, food.
Erin Holt [00:41:02]:
Super important. It's the top of the ant pile, so we're eating really well. That might not be the case for somebody else.
Audrey Holst [00:41:08]:
Totally. Totally. And I think that the other thing that's worth noting, which I think is another sort of gut reaction or sort of, like, knee jerk reaction that happens with a lot of women especially, is this concept of, like, I'll do it. Like, I'll pick up the ball, right? Tiffany Dufu has this brilliant book called Drop the Ball. And it's basically around this whole, like, great, I got it. Like, school's not happening.
Audrey Holst [00:41:39]:
Great. I'm gonna learn that this isn't happening. I'm gonna do that. Right, this just like, I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it. And, like, constantly picking up things that don't have to be picked up and that actually can either be dropped or delegated to somebody else or, you know, like, so there's just this intrinsic reactivity, because, again, that's sort of what we've been sort of trained and our sort of react reactions to. Okay, well, I got somebody. If nobody picks it up, I got to pick it up.
Audrey Holst [00:42:12]:
Right? It's got to be me. I got to do it. And it's like, no, slow your role. Maybe not, right? Like, just like that. You said, having those conversations, having those honest conversations with your family, because what you think may be the thing once you've actually got everybody's input, maybe not, right. Maybe it's something completely different. So I would say just, you know, for people that are navigating this, just to be very cautious of that, taking on more responsibility, sort of seep that happens around stuff. Oh, no, I got it.
Audrey Holst [00:42:40]:
No, I'll do it.
Erin Holt [00:42:43]:
That one cuts deep for me. That's one of my core things is the belief that if I don't do it, nobody else will. I have to. If I don't do it, who will? Therefore, it's my responsibility. And I feel that this is. It permeates my family life, my work life, all of it. So that's a big one. That's a really big one.
Audrey Holst [00:43:00]:
Yeah. And I think it's just one of those things. It's like, again, don't expect perfection. Don't expect it to be a one and done thing. It's just like a. Hey, cool. If you can notice it, give yourself some. Again, cut yourself some slack.
Audrey Holst [00:43:13]:
Even that when you notice something, you're like, oh, man, I'm doing that thing. Like, great. Okay, cool. You noticed it. And now maybe you have the opportunity to sort of loosen the reins a little bit, you know, and, like, step back a little bit, and. And it's. It's okay. You know, like, it's okay.
Erin Holt [00:43:28]:
It's gonna be okay.
Audrey Holst [00:43:29]:
It's gonna be okay.
Erin Holt [00:43:32]:
One thing that I would love to touch upon before we close out is, you know, it feels a little bit like time is standing still and also moving very fast right now. But I think a lot of us, you know, it's definitely an internal time. I mean, we're literally inside. Right. And what I was mentioning earlier is that a lot of anxiety can come up here. A lot of.
Erin Holt [00:43:56]:
And I think sometimes anxiety pops up for us because we're feeling things that feel scary, and we're like, we shouldn't be feeling that. Like.
Audrey Holst [00:44:03]:
Yeah.
Erin Holt [00:44:03]:
You know, like, sadness, grief, anger. Those are bad emotions. So I'm gonna opt into anxiety instead, because I already judge myself for having those feelings. So a big thing that we. I think we're all collectively experiencing is this overwhelming sense of grief. And our culture is not really great with honoring that. I mean,
Erin Holt [00:44:22]:
We literally medicate it in most cases.
Audrey Holst [00:44:24]:
Yeah.
Erin Holt [00:44:25]:
I mean, can you talk a little bit about feeling, allowing ourselves to feel that grief or whatever emotion might be coming up for you during this time versus avoiding it? I think we're all really good at avoiding it. We have a lot of practices, you know, to numb out. But how can we start to tap into, like, experiencing what we're actually feeling and honoring that?
Audrey Holst [00:44:48]:
Yeah, this one is so tricky, because in times that are fairly benign, this can be tough. And so in times that have some sort of extra pressure on it, this can be even more difficult. So I just want to preface that as saying again, this is like one of those things that can be tough to practice, but just sort of noticing, because we can be really good, because we've been trained over long periods of time to shove something down before we've even noticed it. And I know this just from my own personal experience where I used to basically know I felt bad, I felt good, and that was it. There was no nuance at all. It was like I didn't know sadness or grief versus, you know, anger or blame or frustration. Like, I didn't use those words.
Audrey Holst [00:45:42]:
It was like, I kind of feel good. I feel good, or I feel bad, you know? And feeling bad was basically like, I'm feeling something. So you might have people who are sort of starting there. Like, maybe you're just kind of, like, I feel off, right? Like, I'm just kind of feeling not quite right, you know? So maybe it's just sort of starting there. Is I'm sort of feeling, like, off. Okay, so, like, if you sort of let yourself go there. And I think that.
Audrey Holst [00:46:07]:
That sometimes, like, what kind of music does it feel like I should be listening to right now? You know, like, that can sometimes help us to sort of shift a state. If you listen to music that's a little bit more energizing or maybe music, you know, when you feel like you just want to listen to a sad song, you know, sometimes that's sort of like a, whew, okay. There's something there that needs a little bit of a space to be expressed. But feelings are tricky because feelings actually have effects in our bodies. Like, they've done studies, for instance, that loneliness and I have to be careful the way I talk about this, but loneliness creates the same sort of pain in our body that other pains do. So that if you take Tylenol, it actually creates a buffer on the feeling of loneliness, because it actually. We do.
Audrey Holst [00:46:59]:
We feel them. We feel these feelings in our bodies. So when we talk about things like grief or we talk about things, you know, that are tough, we actually have that visceral experience in our bodies, which makes us sometimes feel like, if I feel this thing, it's going to take me over and I'm going to die. Again, that's that sort of gut, like, oh, my gosh, this is. I can't handle this. And this is where it can be helpful to, like, if it's really that way for you, like, go get some support. Like, seriously, the coolest thing about this moment is, like, there's a lot of telehealth available, right? Like, I see my therapist via my computer every single week. And, like, that's amazing.
Audrey Holst [00:47:37]:
So if there's things that, like, people that you are having a hard time processing on your own or you feel like you just can't hold like, get some support around it, like, it's totally. We need that right now. Like, that's going to be extremely important and know that. And I can tell this to people all the time. All the time. All the time. And I can say it now, but I know it's hard to believe if you haven't gone through the feeling of it, but when you allow these feelings to happen the way they are meant to experience in the body, you're meant to experience it. It will move through you, and it'll come out on the other side.
Audrey Holst [00:48:09]:
When you numb, when you shove it down, it actually keeps that experience with you for a longer and more intense period of time. So you can kind of think about it as, like, it's almost like a rollercoaster when you have that, like, oh, my gosh moment. But then it's like you come down on the other side, and all of a sudden it's like a different experience. It's like that with emotions, too, is they will come up, it'll feel intense, it'll feel kind of scary. And if you just sort of be with yourself in that moment, in that, wow, I'm having this feeling, and this is really hard. And you sort of hold that kindness and gentleness towards yourself in that moment, you will pass through it faster. You will pass through it in a more healthy way, and you'll feel more normal on the other side of it.
Audrey Holst [00:48:50]:
So if you want to move through these things faster, that's the practice. And I know it's way easier said than done. So if you feel like, ooh, like, I kind of need a guide or some support with that, this is a great time to, you know, to be finding those.
Erin Holt [00:49:05]:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Get some help if you have trouble moving through those emotions or even just. I was the same as you. I'm like, good, bad. I remember the first therapist I had, I was 16, and she's like, how are you feeling? I was like, bad. I don't have a lot to work with here, but one thing that I will. Well, we mentioned trauma release exercises. I find those.
Erin Holt [00:49:29]:
I'm, like, a very somatic person. Like, things get in my body. Okay. So I think that's why my body really resonates well with that. I also like breath work. There's different styles. The one I practice is through Erin Telford, which comes down through David Elliott.
Erin Holt [00:49:45]:
I cry more in a breath work session than anywhere else. I have a hard time getting, you know, sometimes getting emotions out of my physical body. That helps it. Do you have any other. I'm just kind of throwing out ideas for listeners.
Audrey Holst [00:49:58]:
Totally. So, like I said, the music thing is big for me, so music, dancing, shaking. So that's like. But more like conscious shaking. The, like, really, like, active movement, shaking my arms, shaking my legs, sort of running, running in place, jumping jacks, energetic movement just to, like, get going, get going, get going, get going, and then sort of taking things down. So we talked about the TRE, but there's also just that sort of body position, which is actually called the CRP, the constructive rest position, which is like, just lying on your back with your knees bent
Audrey Holst [00:50:36]:
is actually like a position that is helpful for just starting to let the body sort of come down a bit. And so when the body starts to come down, some things also will come to the surface often. So just having some of those moments of maybe just lying down in that position and just breathing and seeing what comes up, because sometimes when you give yourself that space, things will come up to the surface. Yeah, the teary stuff I love. Noticing how I am in connection with other people gives me a lot of clues as to if I am missing something. If I feel, like with my partner, for instance, and it doesn't necessarily have to be within that relationship because it's always within me. But if I feel like there's sort of plexiglass in between my connections with people, I'll know that there's something that I'm not quite dealing with, because when we shove something down, it's like, boop. It's like a block of connection right there.
Audrey Holst [00:51:36]:
Like, we can't really connect if we're not really connected with ourselves first. So that's another, like, sign where I'm like, okay, I got to move something. I got to do some breathing, I got to do some dancing. I got to do some shaking, or I got to do some CRP, you know, something like that just to get in touch with, like, where I'm at. Because the brain can take us all in all crazy places, so it's kind of like getting your body and your mind back together. So I'll do a lot of grounding stuff, too. A practice that I think is really helpful to sort of getting back to just a starting state of, like, where am I? Is literally looking around the room. So this sounds so stupid, but I find this to be one of the most helpful things ever, is when you actually just with your eyes and actually turn your head as you're scanning, is, like, you just scan the room you're sitting in the.
Audrey Holst [00:52:26]:
And if you actually look into the corners of the room, like, each corner individually, by the time you get to, like, the third corner, you'll feel that your body is starting to shift, because it's like you're showing your body that things are cool, like, that things are safe, because that's the other thing, right? Is it's going to be difficult to process emotions if you're still in a survival state. So take things down and then move things out.
Erin Holt [00:52:50]:
That's a great idea. That sounds like a good tactic for, like, when you're starting to move into a panic attack, too. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. The four walls are here. They're around me.
Audrey Holst [00:52:58]:
I'm saying yes. So I actually, like, full disclosure. I basically had one of those in the grocery store, like, maybe two or three weeks ago where I was like, okay, we are okay. Like, I could feel all rooms spinning, everything. Like, I just.
Erin Holt [00:53:14]:
Whoop.
Audrey Holst [00:53:14]:
I, like, could feel it was happening, and I was like, feel your feet on the ground. Look around. Don't look at the empty shelves. Because that was one of the things that was sending me into panic. But it was a very helpful, and it, like, allowed me to function in a way that I could, like, be there, leave, and, like, kind of go. But, yeah, it's. It's 100%. As somebody who's kind of rode out a panic attack or two during this time period, which is not common for me, by the way.
Audrey Holst [00:53:43]:
That's not something that I usually deal with. Yeah, it's. It's super helpful.
Erin Holt [00:53:49]:
All right, well, Audrey, this was great. I think we gave people some tools to work with and also a deeper understanding of, like, what might be going on, you know, under the hood with all of this. So why don't you tell people where they can find more of you and your work?
Audrey Holst [00:54:07]:
So my company is called Fortitude and Flow. So you can head over to my website at fortitudeandflow.com. I love doing videos. I love doing lives, and I hang out on Instagram a lot. So you can head over there and hang out with me at fortitudeandflow as well. Same on Facebook. And, yeah, those are the ways to find me. And I love.
Audrey Holst [00:54:34]:
I love, like, I love when people come into my inbox. I know not everybody loves that, but I like being able to interact with people. So slide into my DM's or even email at audrey@fortitudeandflow.com. I love the convos.
Erin Holt [00:54:48]:
So we are exact opposites. It's like never dm me under any circumstance.
Audrey Holst [00:54:57]:
Right? But that's the explicit conversation right there. It's like I'm like, cool. You're like, nope. And then that's clear.
Erin Holt [00:55:02]:
That's exactly right. All right, awesome. Well, thank you so much. I hope you continue to farewell during this time.
Audrey Holst [00:55:09]:
Same.
Erin Holt [00:55:13]:
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Funk'tional Nutrition podcast. If you'd like to submit a question to the show, fill up the contact form at erinholthealth.com. if you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review in iTunes. Take care of you.ription text goes here
